Posts by Disillusioned JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro regarding your advice to me that I "... should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publication", I have studied many of their publications. I was raised as a JW from infancy, enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School at age 8, became baptized at age 15, became a ministerial servant at age 19 (shortly after I began attending college), became a regular pioneer at just before age 22 (a few months before receiving my Bachelor Science of Degree in Business Administration), and eventually gave some public talks. But during that long time period I did not "... find Bible Study a joyful experience". Furthermore, from teen years onward I noticed that the WT on numerous times changed their teachings, resulting in them declaring their abandoned teachings as false, though previously saying that JWs could not speak against those teachings without being considered an apostate and thus shunned by JWs.

A number of times while I was an JW I noticed that some of WT's then current teachings were problematic and that much of their reasoning is illogical, misleading, and highly manipulative, but because I was baptized by them and felt pressured to remain an active JW, I pushed to the back of my mind the problems I saw regarding some WT teachings. Instead of Bible study, I wanted to spend my time in secular pursuits, such as studying science and inventions and trying to invent something myself, and trying to make a lot of money in the stock market. Eventually starting in 1995 I started seeing major problems with some core teachings of the WT (including their claim of the governing body being anointed by Jehovah and God) and thus in about 2001 I stopped being active as a JW and began independent study of the Bible. I also began collecting very old WT books (including ones by Rutherford an Russell) and began seeing to a great extent what they reveal about the degree of credibility of the WT's claim of being chosen by Jehovah God as his instrument and his channel of communication.

During my independent study I started enjoying Bible study because I was free to study about the Bible what I wanted, and the way I wanted, and was free to reject teachings which seemed false to me. But after I started seeing numerous major problems with even the Bible, after I discovered that biological evolution is true and that there never was a global flood on Earth, and after I discovered that Jehovah God and a supernatural Jesus Christ are both unreal, I began loosing my joy in studying the Bible. I am thus now at the point where I consider ceasing all study of the Bible, but my desire to convince others to become atheistic naturalists compels me to continuing studying the Bible (so I can reveal problems of the Bible effectively to others). I am trying to ween myself from studying the Bible, much as I have mostly weened myself from studying WT literature.

However, very recently by studying some old WT very carefully I can now see and understand why the WT's major writers (including Rutherford and Franz) concluded what they did on certain matters. As a result some of what they wrote seem much more strongly supported than what I had concluded before, but those teachings still seem to have major problems. For example, the idea that Christ is has been king (invisibly) since 1914 C.E. still seems to be false.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

An influential commentary agrees with something I said on pages two and three of this topic thread. On page two I said "... Jesus (by way of his angel?) delivered God's message of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" to John." Sea Breeze on the same page quoted my words as 'Jesus delivered God's message of the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" to John', leaving out the portion which said "(by way of his angel?)". He then said "How could you possibly come up with that conclusion with a plain literal reading of scripture?" In reply I said on page three of this topic thread that Revelation 1:1-2 say "... that God (the Father) sent a revelation about Jesus to Jesus, that Jesus in turn sent it "by His angel" to John the servant of Jesus." Today I learned that both the "Augmented Third Edition" and the "Fully Revised Fourth Edition" of The New Oxford Annotated Bible edition of the NRSV with the Apocrypha (the latter being copyright 2010), very influential commentaries, agree with what I said. Regarding Revelation 1:1-2 they both say the following.

"This revelation came from God through Jesus Christ and was communicated to John by an angel (referred to again in 22.16)." That is the same point I made, except the commentary uses the phrase "through Jesus" instead of "Jesus delivered" or "Jesus sent". Revelation 22:16 (NRSV) says "It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches."

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Correction: The above cited article about 29 AD - 33 CE was authored by Andreas Köstenberger instead of Justin Taylor, but Justin Taylor shares the same view regarding the dates.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_J._K%C3%B6stenberger, Andreas Johannes Köstenberger is an evangelical scholar and is Research Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology and founding director of the Center for Biblical Studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.[1][2] See also https://www.mbts.edu/about/faculty/andreas-kostenberger/ .

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Hi Jeffro, in some of my mine posts I said "about the year 30 C.E." - not "in the year 30 C.E." - for when I thought Jews (using calculations based upon the book of Daniel) were looking the Messiah and when Jesus began his ministry. That is because I didn't know the precise time period when the Jews were looking for the Messiah based upon calculations of Daniel (assuming the WT's claim was correct), and because I also didn't remember for certain the precise year (whether calculated by the WT or by various non-JW scholars - and scholars disagree as to what year Jesus began his ministry) began. It doesn't matter to me if the year was 26 C.E. or 30 CE., since to me that 4 year difference is minor compared to a time period of 490 years. It also doesn't matter to me since I thought that many of the Jews making the calculations might not have known what the precise year was for the start of 490 year time period.

I later looked it up in the first edition of the WT's Insight book and I noticed it said Jesus began his ministry in the fall of 29 C.E. - not in 30 C.E. Since you said 26 C.E. is the correct year last night I searched on the internet to see if a number of scholars say 30 C.E. and if a number of others say 26 C.E. It appears that most in our day say 26 C.E., but that some in our day say 30 C.E., and that some say 29 CE. Others say some other year.

At https://cbs.mbts.edu/2020/04/08/april-3-ad-33-why-we-believe-we-can-know-the-exact-date-jesus-died/ Justin Taylor says that Jesus began his ministry in 29 (AD) C.E.and he states his reasons for that view, while acknowledging that most scholars say Jesus died in 30 AD (C.E.) instead of 33 AD (C.E). He is a Southern Baptist and executive vice president and publisher for books at Crossway, a major publisher of Christian books. Yet despite being such he came up with the same year for the start of Jesus' ministry as did the WT. He says that Jesus died on Nisan 15, AD 33 and that the date is also Friday, April 3. The WT says virtually the same thing, for it says that Jesus died on Friday (at about 3:00 PM), Nisan 14, 33 C.E. in the spring (see first edition of the Insight book).

Regarding whether the book of Daniel was written around 164 B.C.E or centuries earlier, I have read arguments for both time periods. To me both dates have strong arguments for them, and weaknesses for them. It seems that the only ones arguing for the 6th century date are those Christians who believe the entire Bible is inspired by God and true in all of its teachings. In contrast it seems that those scholars who teach a date of about 164 B.C.E. (I am not saying that precise year, but rather within 5 to 10 years of that year) consist of atheists and theologically liberal Christians (and maybe some theologically liberal Jews) who believe no human has the power (even with help from God) to make accurate detailed predictions hundreds of years in advance.

I am an atheist (and thus I believe there is no such thing as divine inspiration) and as a result of my research I lean towards the belief that the book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C.E (about the year 164 B.C.E.), but I am not certain it was written then. Furthermore, I think that the second kingdom referred to in Daniel chapter two is Media-Persia instead of Media; that the third kingdom referred to is Greece (and its subsequent break up, in stages, into the the Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms) instead of Persia; and that the fourth kingdom is Rome (whether in the form of the Republic of Rome, the Roman Empire, or a combination of both).

I found one Jewish religious commentary on the Hebrew Scriptures which can be read online in English (on the www.chabad.org website). That commentary is by Jewish scholar Rashi and was written in the middle ages, but I read a modern English translation of it. In regards to the 70 weeks prophecy it said that it extended to the time in which Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans under general Titus. According to https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199840731/obo-9780199840731-0128.xml Rashi was born in 1040 C.E. and died in 1106 C.E That web page says Rashi "was the single most influential Jewish Bible commentator of the Middle Ages." It also says the following. "He is certainly a centrally important figure in the history of Jewish biblical interpretation, and an argument can be made for his importance in the history of Christian biblical interpretation as well."

In part, the English translation of Rashi's commentary says the following regarding Daniel chapter 9 (at https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16492/jewish/Chapter-9.htm ). "the anointed one will be cut off: Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.

... to terminate the transgression and to end sin: so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah. The number of seventy weeks is four hundred and ninety years. The Babylonian exile was seventy [years] and the Second Temple stood four hundred and twenty [years]."

The various commentaries I read disagree with each other in regards to various particulars and it is very hard (in regards to various particulars) to determine the correct meaning of a number of scripture passages. Studying the Bible is thus wearisome to my mind.

53

PIMO Bethel Elder Has Special Message & Speaks out

by Newly Enlightened in

a pimo elder at bethel has come forward with a special message posted on reddit.. https://www.reddit.com/gallery/v9mgao.

the dated pictures attached are "proof conclusive" that this is for real.

no outside guests are allowed inside bethel at this time.

Disillusioned JW

Moments ago I found news articles which are consistent (though which possibly don't collaborate) the following claim of the one identified as "A PIMO Elder at Bethel". "They are actively taking steps to go on the offensive rather than having to constantly defend themselves in court. They even began a campaign of reaching out to local government officials in certain regions in hopes of politicking and garnering favor with the community."

The articles are based upon a press release by the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters, and it appears that the press release was sent to multiple countries. The following are links to some of the articles.

-https://milwaukeecourieronline.com/index.php/2022/06/04/milwaukee-residents-reflect-on-the-impact-of-a-2002-historic-supreme-court-ruling-as-20th-anniversary-nears/

- https://www.city-sentinel.com/faith/as-twentieth-anniversary-of-historic-u-s-supreme-court-ruling-in-watchtower-v-village-of/article_4f154d76-e73e-11ec-abe4-836295bf714e.html

- http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/news/jehovah-s-witnesses-to-host-webinar-on-20th-anniversary-of-landmark-ruling/article_bb0a71f3-f9d4-5fb4-9f4b-b6dd5072e1ae.html

The first article in the above list says "For more information on the Stratton case, go to www.jw.org and type Stratton in the search field."

The second article in the above list says the following.

'For more information on the Stratton case, go to www.jw.org and type Stratton in the search field.

This legal victory, drawn from the U.S. Constitution and long-established precents, is one of more than 250 rulings in cases brought by Jehovah’s Witnesses in high courts around the world that have expanded the rights of people of all religious faiths. “It's hard to point to any organization, let alone a religious organization, that has had such a profound impact on the shaping of constitutional law over many decades in the Supreme Court," said Harvard professor McDaniel.'

The third article in the above link is is dated June 16, 2020 (a Thursday) and it has the title of "Jehovah’s Witnesses to host webinar on 20th anniversary of landmark ruling". It says the following.

"Attorneys, media personnel and ordinary citizens will have a chance to learn more about a Supreme Court ruling allowing Jehovah’s Witnesses to go door-to-door in communities nationwide.

... A panel of four speakers from the Religious Freedom Clinic at Harvard Law School will be featured on the live-stream program to ascertain what impact the precedent-setting ruling had on free speech, if government can restrict or regulate people going door to door, whether government has the right to regulate certain door to door activities to maintain safety, and if municipal leaders can be held liable if they attempt to regulate door to door activities.

The program is designed for attorneys, government officials, academics, students, and constitutional advocates, Rivera said, but is specifically accredited as a Continued Legal Education program in 11 jurisdictions.

No registration required, and to view the free seminar beginning at 1 p.m. Friday visit https://www.legallearningstudio.com/events/watchtower-stratton/."

The JW activity mentioned at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5088010727587840/avoid-upcoming-cult-apologists-conference is also consistent with the above stated claim of "A PIMO Elder at Bethel". David DOCKSTEADER (Jehovah’s Witnesses Public Information Department, Ontario, Canada) is said to have been scheduled for the 2022 Center for Studies on New Religions Conference (which was for yesterday, June 16, 2022).

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Jeffo, thanks for informing me that the WT's idea that the Jews were especially expecting a Messiah around 30 CE or that it was because of anything in Daniel comes from a Christian tradition. Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Clarification to a recent earlier post. Regarding Furuli, I said that "... (while he was an elder at the time) he published a book which criticized the Governing Body of the JW." While the book appears to have been published then, Furuli didn't allow the book to be released to the public until after he became disfellowshipped. It seems that his book received some promotional publicity before a copy of the book was offered to the GB, before the book was released to the public. For example, see https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/05/26/in-new-book-a-prominent-jehovahs-witness-trashes-the-faiths-governing-body/ . That article came out in May 2020 (after the book had been published but before it had been released) and it appears Furuli was disfellowshipped in the following month.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, I wasn't just indicating that I had a hard time finding religious Jewish commentaries on the book of Daniel. t was saying that I had a hard time finding religious Jewish commentaries on the Hebrew Bible, or on any sections of it.

When I go to the books section of thrift stores (Including the large bins of books often found at the local Goodwill Outlet stores) I find far more Christian religious books than Jewish religious books. Furthermore, most of the Jewish religious books I find (other than Jewish OT Bibles and prayer books) are about religious rituals, rather than books teaching theological doctrine or explanation, explaining verses in the OT, or explaining Bible prophecy. Years ago in a thrift store I found a few Jewish OT Scriptures commentaries in English at a thrift store. I think there are some Jewish OT Scripture commentaries in a local large book store, and perhaps I will go there to read such books there. But for now I prefer to find and read some (in English, not in Hebrew) online, but so far I found virtually none online.

The WT has written that about the year 30 C.E. a number of Jews were expecting the arrival of the Jewish Messiah, and that such expectations were based upon their calculations of the 70 weeks prophecy in the book of Daniel. [Is that a false teaching of the WT or were Jews back then really doing such?] If some of the ancient Jews were doing such, then that shows that a number of early first century Jews considered the book of Daniel to be prophetic - even though the book was classified in the Writings or would later be classified in the Writings. I have long thought (and even still think it is likely) that the WT is correct in saying that a number of very early first century C.E. Jews made calculations of the 70 weeks prophecy, and that as a result of doing such they were anticipating the arrival of the Messiah around the year 30 C.E.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html is an interesting news article which is related to the above. The title of the article is "Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection". It says in part the following.

'Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai.

... Mr. Knohl contends that the stone’s writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days.

He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David.

“This should shake our basic view of Christianity,” he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. “Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.” '

----------

https://jwtalk.net/topic/32011-rolf-furuli-new-book/ gives a summary of Rolf Furuli's book called When Was The Book Of Daniel Written? In part it says the following.

"6. Antiochus IV Epiphanes All the verses in chapters 7, 8, and 11 in Daniel that are believed to describe the history of Antiochus are discussed in detail. It is shown that modern Bible translators manipulate their translation of some verses, so they fit the history of Antiochus. It is also shown that the few sources that describe the actions of Antiochus are contradictory, and these sources are to some extent manipulated as well. The conclusion of the chapter, contrary to the almost universal agreement, is that Antiochus is not referred to anywhere in the Book of Daniel.

... The setting of the the book of Daniel is God's kingdom, and not the actions of Antiochus."

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

In the article on his web site he also says the following 'During the last part of the 20th century and particularly in the 21st century, the GB has made a great number of laws and rules that are not based on the Bible. For example, 32 of the 43 disfellowshipping offenses that are mentioned in the book for elders, “Shepherd the flock of God” have no Bible basis. ... Jehovah God has taught me through his organization to show courage and never shrink back when I see something that is wrong in the organization, also in situations that will harm me if I speak up. The position of the members of the GB and a great number of their decisions violate the Bible. Because of this, I wrote the book My Beloved Religion—And The Governing Body. ... Everyone who is not obedient to the GB will be disfellowshipped, and in June of 2020, I was disfellowshipped. The members of the judicial committee had not seen or read my book, so their decision was made on hearsay, which even is contrary to the rules of the GB.'

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Thanks scholar for mentioning "former Witness Semitic scholar, Rolf Furuli in his When Was The Book Of Daniel Written? A Philological, Linguistic, And Historical Approach". I am trying to find online information about the book. I found some information about the author and discovered that in 2020 (while he was an elder at the time) he published a book which criticized the Governing Body of the JW. He was disfellowshipped by the GB after he offered his book to them for them to read and implement the urged changes mentioned in his book. He didn't publish the book until after the GB rejected the idea of changing their ways and until after the GB disfellowshipped him. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/hfrzc3/rolf_furuli_publishes_a_written_statement_to/ has an interesting post about this, called "Rolf Furuli publishes a written statement to Norwegian newspaper." In part, that post says the following.

"As an elder, I am trained to do something about things I see in the congregation that are contrary to the Bible. Now I have uncovered many things at the top of the organization that are contrary to the Bible. When I try to do something about this, I have a good conscience. And a good conscience can withstand all kinds of pressure. After publishing, I have received hundreds of emails - many from men who have recently renounced the assignment as elders, because for their conscience they can no longer represent GB, and from elders who are deeply concerned about the development of the organization. I will keep in touch with these."

See also Furuli's web page at https://mybelovedreligion.no/about/ ("My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"). It says in part the following.

'The first Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses (GB) was instituted in 1971, and the arrangement of a body of elders in each congregation was instituted in 1972. The bodies of elders were, to a great degree, independent of the GB, and they made their own decisions to the best of the congregation members. After some time, some of the power of the bodies of elders were transferred to the GB, and this was completed in the 21st century. In this way, the organization got their “bishops” and their “clergy.”

Today, the GB functions as a government for JW. The members of the GB have all power over the doctrines, the assets, and the money. The GB demands absolute obedience, and those who are not obedient to their rules and decisions are disfellowshipped. Today, the organization is autocratic, and its structure resembles the structure of the Catholic Church.'